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naturalelement
2003-08-01, 12:27 PM
w/ ea passin day, the body count in iraq grows. thousnds of iraqis are bein rounded up, hld prisoner in their own cntry, interrogated w/out an attrny or any due process. iraqi cvlians who have the misfortune of livin in or drivn nearby an area that's bein raided by U.S. spcial frcs are bein mrdered in cld blood. every day, anthr U.S. family lrns of the loss of a lovd one. same ?, diff day, hvn't enough of our brthrs & sistrs bled? wht 4? 9/11...oil...absolute cntrl...safety (yeah, rght-how safe u rlly feel?). freedom, becomin a wrd w/ a huge grey area.

as we all know (or shld), the war in iraq is not ovr. the war and occuptn wll not end unless the ppl of the U.S. rise up as thy did durin the vietnam war. thnk our ppl aren't gonna come bck jst as fukd? we are STLL dealin w/ the reprecautions, ths wll be worse. technlgy and the evil behnd it have made tht an undenialable reality.

the pattrn of lies, deceit and deception practiced by the bsh admin is bein exposd, BOUT TIME. the bsh admin's approval ratns are drppn sharply as ppl realize tht thy have been BLATANTLY LIED to. we can mobilize ths grwin angr into a pwrful mvmnt tht can radically chng the political climate in the cntry. break from the herd.

in the lst 2 wks, more than 1,500 organztns &
indvdls have endorsed the octbr 25 intrnatnl
march on wshingtn. a full list of endorsers can b fnd @:
http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o25/endorsers.html

b-low is the resolution passed by the san fran labr councl (AFL-CIO) spportn the oct 25 march on
wshingtn. jst an exampl...

RESOLUTN OF THE SAN FRAN LABR COUNCIL

-Bring the troops home now
-End the occupation of Iraq
-Money for human needs, not war
-Repeal the Patriot Act

Whereas, the people in Iraq want the US occupation to end,
and the US soldiers in Iraq want to come home. We ask: Who
is benefiting from this war, and who is paying the price?;
and

Whereas, every day, people are dying as a consequence of
this illegal occupation ... Every day human misery expands
in the drive for world Empire and corporate globalization
... Every day, jobs are lost and vital social programs
that serve and protect working people are being looted and
destroyed, as the Bush administration cynically
manipulates the so-called "war on terrorism" to carry out
the social transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top;
and

Whereas, the Bush administration lied to the people, to
the Congress, and to the United Nations as it raced to
wage war against Iraq. Now tens of thousands of Iraqis and
many hundreds of GIs have been killed or maimed - by
Rumsfeld's count over 1000 attacks on US forces since May
1st. As the anger of the Iraqi people inevitably grows,
the body count on both sides will sharply increase; and

Whereas, as the anti-war movement predicted, the Iraqi
people view US forces as colonial occupiers, not
liberators. American soldiers are killing and being killed
in a war that serves only the interests of U.S. oil
monopolies and corporate elites - George W. Bush's real
constituents. Soldiers and their families are realizing
that high government officials, mostly millionaires who
shuttle between corporate boardrooms and government posts,
are using U.S. troops as a private security detachment for
the multinational corporations' plunder of Iraq's oil
riches; and

Whereas, the Pentagon now admits they will have 150,000
troops in Iraq for the "foreseeable future," at a cost of
nearly $4 Billion a month -- on top of the cost of
maintaining US troops and bases in 130 other countries -
and this rapid rise in the power and reach of the military
is closely linked to the unprecedented assault on the
civil rights, union rights, benefits (including veterans'
benefits), and living standards of working people going on
right now in the United States; and

Whereas, the Bush administration - which only came to
power due to massive racist disenfranchisement and voting
fraud -- has used the excuse of their "endless war" to
sponsor a wholesale assault on the Bill of Rights,
institutionalize racial profiling, assume extraordinary
powers for the Executive branch, and adopt new repressive
laws like the Patriot Act; and

Whereas, on October 25, 2003 the anti-war, civil rights,
social justice and labor movements - joined in ever
increasing numbers by family members of military personnel
and veterans and international delegations -- will march
on Washington, D.C. to demand an immediate end to the US
war and occupation in Iraq, repeal of the Patriot Act, and
money for human needs, not for war; therefore be it

RESOLVED, that the San Francisco Labor Council, AFL-CIO,
demands: 1) an immediate end to the US/British war and
occupation in Iraq - Bring the Troops Home Now; 2) repeal
of the Patriot Act and other repressive laws; 3)
reordering of national priorities toward the human needs
of our people. We need jobs and real security, not
militarism and empire-building; and be it further

RESOLVED: that the council endorse the October 25, 2003
International March on Washington, D.C. behind the banner:
Bring the Troops Home Now...End the Occupation of
Iraq...Repeal the Patriot Act...Money for Human Needs, not
for War and Empire - and will urge affiliated unions,
other labor councils, state federation and AFL-CIO to do
the same.

--Adopted unanimously, July 28, 2003.

*more info, stay informd, inform urslf*

To read the CALL TO ACTION, go to:
http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o25/index.html

TO ENDORSE, fill out the easy-to-use form at
http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o25/index.html#endo

To DOWNLOAD THE FLYER, go to
http://www.internationalanswer.org/pdf/o25.pdf

IF YOU ARE ORGANIZING TRANSPORTATION from your area, fill
out the form at
http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o25/index.html#transp
so your information can be listed on the website

graemlins/peace.gif one love

a_money
2003-08-01, 02:25 PM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by naturalelement:
w/ ea passin day, the body count in iraq grows. thousnds of iraqis are bein rounded up, hld prisoner in their own cntry, interrogated w/out an attrny or any due process. iraqi cvlians who have the misfortune of livin in or drivn nearby an area that's bein raided by U.S. spcial frcs are bein mrdered in cld blood. every day, anthr U.S. family lrns of the loss of a lovd one. same ?, diff day, hvn't enough of our brthrs & sistrs bled? wht 4? <hr></blockquote>

Jesus. What's your address? I'd like to get you an NYTimes subscription and the Economist to balance out the stuff you read on Alternet. Try some facts and making your own judgements.

Thanks for the simple reading of Iraq, i'm sure Noam Chomsky is pleased. I'm sure if you talk to some of the soldiers coming home, you will see that the reality is more complicated. Heard a great report on NPR this morning about an Iraqi who was shot during a raid. In his own words (and corroborated by the doctor), he said he wasn't mad at anyone and no one shot him "in cold blood". True, looters are being shot. Shouldn't they?
True, there is no American style haebeus corpus "due process"-yet. There was no due process under Saddam, either. I like how people who were against the war are now expecting the occupation to be flawlessly succesful. I also like how the attitude of the Iraqis is surmised: "...well, we're occupying their country, and they're Muslims, so they must hate us". Nice. Very enlightened perspective. The fact is there are people who are mad at us, and people who love us, sometimes on the same day. I know dialectics are very attractive, but they usually don't hold.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
9/11...oil...absolute cntrl...safety (yeah, rght-how safe u rlly feel?). freedom, becomin a wrd w/ a huge grey area.
<hr></blockquote>

Oil. I love how you refer to it as if you never touch the stuff, oil is for imperialists. Like it's shit. Like you don't live in the Western world, driving cars and buses and using Vaseline and plastic. The fact is, oil is what kept Hussein in power and it stands to benefit the Iraqis immensely. Maybe instead of sticking our collective heads in the sand as you and our "labor union" friends want to do, we could be proactive and rally to make sure Bush and Blair KEEP their grandiose promises. For someone who cares about the Iraqis so much, I find it strange that you are actively suggesting we abandon them when they need us most. One thing I've found in this mess that the most arrogance, elitism and callousness comes from the anti-war side of the debate.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
as we all know (or shld), the war in iraq is not ovr. the war and occuptn wll not end unless the ppl of the U.S. rise up as thy did durin the vietnam war.
<hr></blockquote>

I like how you lament soldiers and Iraqis being shot first, then concede that there's still a war on here. What do you think happens in a war? What do you think happens in an occupation? People get shot at and killed. These are soldiers, not bakers.
In Vietnam, we were like the dog chasing the car. We didn't know how to accomplish our objective or what to do once we did. in this case, we WON the war already. A minimal (yes, minimal) amount of people were killed. Now it's our job to help Iraq. It's unfortunate that Bush is the one to do it, but it's the way it is. I don't see how pulling us out or throwing blame helps solve the problem at this point. Maybe you can enlighten me.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
*more info, stay informd, inform urslf*
<hr></blockquote>

Again, the assumption here is that being "informed" on "facts" will lead to this conclusion. I would look at the same set of facts and draw an entirely different conclusion. Leftist elitism at its finest.

Thanks for the thought.
a$

[ August 01, 2003: Message edited by: Aaron Money ]

[ August 01, 2003: Message edited by: Aaron Money ]</p>

naturalelement
2003-08-07, 02:14 PM
dn't have time to reply to all ths (cause u knw i will latr), but i'm not about to get all my info frm the ppl tht the gen pop does, cause it's what they WANT ppl to believe...jst like all the fukin stuff we're findin out now, aftr the fact. dn't think i dn't read/seek out a ton, u should c my apt...everythng i can get my hands/ears on...mags, radio shows, handouts, pprs, i go to conferences, speakers, etc...so dn't talk down to me like i'm not gettin facts. take ur subscrip to a big corp. news entity and stick it up ur ass, or jst watch cnn.

a_money
2003-08-07, 02:20 PM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by naturalelement:
dn't have time to reply to all ths (cause u knw i will latr), but i'm not about to get all my info frm the ppl tht the gen pop does, cause it's what they WANT ppl to believe...<hr></blockquote>

Congratulations on not being as stupid as your fellow Americans. Or Britons, since the Economist is based in London. Your paranoia is refreshing. But don't think that People's World Weekly or the Pulse has any less bias, it's just one you agree with. I suppose you read "Behold A Pale Horse", too.

a$

Tasha
2003-08-07, 02:32 PM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aaron Money:


"Behold A Pale Horse"
a$<hr></blockquote>

oh god.
i was hanging with a group of folks that kept trying to shove that book down my throat a while back. ACK.

hey a$, or anyone else, what's your take on "before the mayflower" ?? i read it in a black theatre history class... and the prof seemed to take it as being 100% accurate.. i tend to disagree (though i've no idea how far off it is compared to the pathetic history books i read in junior high..)

also,
howard zinn? what do you think about his american history book?

a_money
2003-08-07, 03:37 PM
I have a friend who is normally a very critical thinker, but who thinks that William Cooper actually knew things. That book is like a cult.

Haven't read "Before The Mayflower". I assume it's a Native-centric history of the colonial years?

Howard Zinn. I got three quarters of the way through People's History and couldn't take it. He's almost as bad as Noam Chomsky with the black and white view of history and world politics.

a$

Tasha
2003-08-07, 07:28 PM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aaron Money:
I have a friend who is normally a very critical thinker, but who thinks that William Cooper actually knew things. That book is like a cult.<hr></blockquote>

yup. agreed.
speaking of cults... i was speaking recently with someone who was in a cult for 6 years (she got out because her family kidnapped her!). anyway... she was talking about how she became so good at turning off her deductive reasoning skills that she ended up with head trauma/brain damage. she now was a hard time with numbers...like she'll mix up the 5:45pm vs 5:15pm. i thought this was pretty interesting...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aaron Money:

Haven't read "Before The Mayflower". I assume it's a Native-centric history of the colonial years?<hr></blockquote>

it's african american-centric.... just read the first chapter... it's sort of hilarious. though some of it points out important flaws in euro-centric history books.... trying to learn about "truth" regarding history is pretty ridiculously difficult.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aaron Money:

Howard Zinn. I got three quarters of the way through People's History and couldn't take it. He's almost as bad as Noam Chomsky with the black and white view of history and world politics.
<hr></blockquote>

i havent even really started... it's just been so incredibly highly recommended to me, i feel that i should give it a chance. my understanding is that it's american history from the working class perspective/minority perspective... so, i think that it is probably a valid read, if one simply keeps that in mind. but, again, i havent read it yet..

but, continuing with what i said about finding what is "the truth" in history being next to impossible to find, i tend to think that's all right, but that we just need to acknowledge that fact. we can still learn from it.

naturalelement
2003-08-08, 02:46 PM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aaron Money:


Congratulations on not being as stupid as your fellow Americans. Your paranoia is refreshing. But don't think that People's World Weekly or the Pulse has any less bias, it's just one you agree with. I suppose you read "Behold A Pale Horse", too.

a$<hr></blockquote>

thx, i guess.

hardly paranoid, realistic. & pssd off.

peoples weekly is actually a publctn i DN'T read, thnk u vry mch. and the pulse has a decntly informative artcl erry now & thn.

have not read ths particular book, heard ppl talk bout it, prolly get to it someday. @ least skim it.

ohhhh by the way, the USA Today newppr (delivrd to the telly room)had a frnt pg artcl bout 13 more lives lost...wndr if they're frontin as well.

a_money
2003-08-11, 04:23 PM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by naturalelement:


ohhhh by the way, the USA Today newppr (delivrd to the telly room)had a frnt pg artcl bout 13 more lives lost...wndr if they're frontin as well.<hr></blockquote>

Please don't act as if you care about any of the lives lost in Iraq. Your previous posts show that what you care about most is pointing out the hypocrisy and arrogance of the US, realistic solutions to real problems be damned.

Frankly, your ethnocentrism is getting to be really tired and counterproductive.

a$

[ August 11, 2003: Message edited by: Aaron Money ]</p>

naturalelement
2003-08-12, 05:57 PM
rght aaron, u bet.

i care more bout my fllw brthrs & sistrs thn anythng else. sht, i care more bout bugs i find in my apt and take outside instead of killn thm thn most ppl care bout othr ppl.

the u.s., i do love my country, do i love or even agree w/ half the sht tht goes dwn here, no. reread previous posts, specially ths topic genius.

wanna get dwn to calln names and talkn sht...frankly, ur ignorance and holier than though attitude is gettn tiresome and boring. all hail the all knwing (dream on) aarn$, yeah rght. u thnk my political stance, ideals, values, morals are ALL displayd on a fukn msg board? get real.

realistic solution...my ass.

[ August 12, 2003: Message edited by: naturalelement ]</p>

thatlooksgood
2003-08-12, 06:48 PM
most of our goverment sucks

thatlooksgood
2003-08-12, 06:49 PM
but yes we should bring people home.